Re: Датировка затмения Прокла - Roger-y, gorm-y и другим

Автор сообщения: Roger
Дата и время сообщения: 24 March 2006 at 05:44:19:

В ответ на сообщение: Re: Датировка затмения Прокла - Roger-y, gorm-y и другим

> Кстати, о дискуссии.
> Мы обсуждаем кардинальные точки эклиптики.

Это не так, и я Вам уже об этом говорил, например, здесь. Мы обсуждаем перевод греческого слова kentron и словосочетания anatolikon kentron в астрологическом контексте. Посмотрим, что об этом думают специалисты по греческой астрологии.

Let us continue to examine the language used by the Hellenistic astrologers. The four angles in the whole-sign house system were collectively designated by the highly suggestive term kentron, which generally means any kind of point, but concretely means a sting, a goad, and the point around which a compass arm turns (from which we get our word 'center'). In our astrological context, it means a pivot or turning point. Each of the pivots, then, must be understood as a special kind of turning point,(18) with respect to which planets in the whole sign surrounding these pivots are understood to be centered.

Whereas the Hellenistic astrologers called the 1st house the Ascendant (anaphora) just as we do, the 2nd house was called "post-ascension" (epanaphora) because planets in this house rise after the 1st house planets do; similarly, the 6th house was called "pre-setting" because planets contained therein set before those in the 7th, which was itself called "the setting place" (dusis).

Robert Schmidt, The Facets of Fate: The Rationale Underlying the Hellenistic System of Houses

As an example, let me discuss the concept of an "angle." Why is this word used to describe the ascending degree, for instance? Someone practiced in the visualization of the various celestial planes and spheres might conjecture that it referred to the inclination of the ecliptic plane relative to the plane of the horizon, and this person would at least be on the right track. In fact, the term "angle" was only rarely used by Helle-nistic astrologers before Ptolemy. The more common term was kentron, a word that means a sting or goad but also the center around which a circle pivots and is described. The early Latin translation of this term was cardo, or hinge, which clearly brings out the meaning of some kind of center of revolution. And indeed, the Ascendant-Descendant axis can be seen as an axis or hinge that allows the ecliptic to revolve up and down during the course of a day.

Он же

The significance of these motions become clearer when we see them in relation to the four angles of the Zodiac, the Ascendant (horoskopos in Greek), the Midheaven, the Descendant and the Nadir or IC. The Horoskopos marked the first place or House in the chart. The four angles were collectively designated by the term "kentron", which generally meant any kind of point, but more precisely a sting, a goad, and the point around which a compass arm turns (from which we get our word 'centre'). Figuratively and astrologically speaking then, each of the four pivots or angles were a special kind of turning point.

Steven Birchfield, An Introduction to Hellenistic Astrology

3. А что об этом думают сами эллины-астрологи, кроме Птолемея?

Вот фрагмент астрологического папируса II века из P.Mich III (фр. 149)

[стр. 73] Греческий текст
IX, 12 kentra de legetai vroskopoi [corrected: vroskopow] mesouranhma dusiw upoghn:

[стр. 100] Комментарий переводчика

Note: 12. The cardinal points, kentra, are defined in the usual way; cf. Bouché-Leclerq, op. cit., p. 258. They are the basis of the doctrine of tсpoi, loci, the discussion of which continues to l. 35. See Bouché-Leclerq, op. cit., pp. 256 ff.; F. Cumont, "Écrits Hermétiques, I, Sur les douze lieux de la sphere," Revue de Philologie, XLII (1918), 63-79. There is first a dodecatropos which agrees substantially with others which are preserved, e.g., Thrasyllus in C.C.A.G., VIII, 3, p. 101, 16 ff.; Antiochus ibid., p. 117; Vettius Valens IV, 12; Firmicus Maternus II, 19. Thrasyllus ascribes the doctrine to Hermes Trismegistus, a sign of Egyptian origin.

[стр. 112] Перевод этого места
The centers are called horoscope, zenith, occident, nadir.

2242. Датировка затмения Прокла - Й. Табов 16:37 03.03.06 (100)
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