Re: Бледный Лис

Автор сообщения: Roger
Дата и время сообщения: 15 July 2004 at 21:04:36:

В ответ на сообщение: Re: Бледный Лис

> Мне мнения специалистов достаточно по этому вопросу.

По-какому? По вопросу о культивировании оливкового дерева в Новом Царстве - это мнение специалистов, и оно опирается как раз на те же венки в гробницах.

> Вы ж его и ведете - сведений Вам не хватает для полной картины, а для
> глубокомысленных выводов, не имеющих за собой ничего, кроме камлания, достаточно.

Я его поддерживаю, а ведёте его Вы. Кроме общего интереса к полной картине оливологии (которой у Вас нет также, как и у меня), я испытываю вполне конкретный интерес - к различиям в психологии людей, воспринимающих одну и ту же информацию. Тут у меня материала хватает.

> Каких данных, каких захоронении, какие историки. Хоть сослались бы на
> кого-нибудь, не Ваши же фантазии разбирать. Только и подчеркнули пропасть
> между своими декларациями и положением вещей.

Данные и захоронения - возьмите, например, Картера. Вы что, уже забыли?Историки, например, такие:

...the olive and apple appear in the new Kingdom...

Table 6-2 Evidence for fruit crops in Egypt

Common name Earliest record
Scientific name
Type of
(dynasty or period)
Date palm Phoenix dactylifera Pre-dynastic Archeological
Doum palm Hyphaene thebaica Pre-dynastic Archeological
Sycomore fig Ficus sycomorus Pre-dynastic Archeological
(Christ's thorn)
Ziziphus spina-Christi I (Old Kingdom) Archeological
Fig Ficus carica II (Old Kingdom) Artistic
Grape Vitis Vinifera II (Old Kingdom) Archeological
Hegelig Balanites aegyptiaca III (Old Kingdom) Archeological
Mimusops shimperi III (Old Kingdom) Archeological
Argun palm Medemia argun V (Old Kingdom) Archeological
Carob* Ceratonia siliqua XII (Middle Kingdom) Archeological
Pomegranate Punica granatum XII (Middle Kingdom) Archeological
Egyptian plum
(sehestem, mokheit)
Cordia myxa XVIII (New Kingdom) Archeological
Olive Olea europea XVIII (New Kingdom) Archeological
Apple Malus × domestica XVIIII (New Kingdom) Literary
Peach Prunus persica Graeco-Roman Archeological
Pear Pyrus communis Graeco-Roman Archeological
Cherry Prunus avium; P. cerasus 5 BCE Literary
Citron Citrus medica 2nd century CE Literary
* A questionable literary reference dates to the first dynasty.
Source: Adapted from Darby et al., 1976.

Археологические свидетельства - это как раз могила Тохтамыша и далее.

It became fashionable during the 18th Dynasty to wear large collars of faience, the individual pieces of which were usually made in the form of flowers, leaves or fruits. In these, we can recognize the blooms of the cornflower, a type of chamomile, the white and the blue lotus, green leaf elements and yellow fruits. Collars of the same type, but made with fresh flowers, are evidenced at banquet from Tomb paintings. In these, servant girls can be seen tying the floral decorations around the necks of guests. The "Overseer of the garden of the Ramesseum", and individual by the name of Nedjemger who lived during the 19th Dynasty at Thebes, is depicted in his tomb inspecting the manufacture of floral collars from fresh plant material. These were probably mass produced, and though very rare, a very few such collars have survived into our time. In the ruins of a house at el-Amarna, a single specimen was found. At least six additional collars were also buried together in a pit outside the tomb of Tutankhamun with some remains from his funerary banquet and various embalming material from his burial. Three of those collars have also survived. Though the depictions of such collars are usually too schematically drawn to provide much information, from the remains of actual collars we can see how they were produced.

To make the collars, a piece of papyrus was cut into the shape of a collar and this served as the base. It was trimmed around the throat edge with linen, which also allowed it to be tied about the neck. Then, using thin strips of a palm leaf, the individual pieces of plant material were sewn onto the papyrus in rows, one above the other. The green leaves of the persea (Mimusops laurifolia), the olive tree (Olea europaea), the Egyptian willow (Salix subserrata), the pomegrnate (Punica granatum) and presumably the wild celery (Apium graveolens) were all used, along with the colorful flower heads or petals of the cornflower (Centaurea depressa), the bitterweed (Picris asplenioides), the blue lotus (Nymphaea coerulea). These arrangements were then adorned with red berries from the indigenous withania nightshade (Withania somnifera) and blue, disk-shaped faience beads.


Flowers were not only used to adorn the mummies of ancient Egypt. For example, they were also used for large floral bouquets, or occasionally wreaths made in the shape of an ankh sign which were popular offerings to the gods. These might be carried in the burial procession and placed near the mummy when it was stood upright in front of the tomb entrance. There the deceased would be given the last rites before internment. These arrangements were made with a central section consisting of a few papyrus stems with large flower umbels. Onto these, the same flowers, leaves and fruits used in the collars and mummy wreaths were attached in circles, one above the other. In a few instances, the entire wreath still has a convolvulus (Convolvulus arvensis) vine wrapped around it, or there might be cos lettuce stalks worked in.

In a few graves, pole bouquets have been found, notably in those of Tutankhamun, Sennefer, Sennedjem and Kha. However, in each of these, the arrangements consist of completely different material than those shown in the representations. They only contain the greet leafy branches of the persea and the olive tree, some vine leaves and the leafy stems of the melilot (Melilotus indica). We have no firm explanation for the differences between representations and these actual finds.

Что непонятно-то? Вообще, тон у Вас возмутительный. Кроме того, Вы заставляете меня шарить по интернету остатки с чужого стола, а я этого не люблю. Давайте лучше про двигатели постоянного тока поговорим, или там например про скольжение дерева по фторопласту. Может, обсудим состав материала пирамид по Давидовичу?

1734. Сплетня - Не Понял 17:04 12.07.04 (142)
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