Автор сообщения: jey
Дата и время сообщения: 20 July 2004 at 11:21:23:
В ответ на сообщение: Re: Встречный ответ
Еще раз внимательно прочитал Вашего Халдана. Не пишет он о том, что не возделывалась олива. Скорее наоборот, приводит много аргументов - за. Но осторожно замечает: "whether these were the result of local cultivation is unknown." Unknown - значит не известно, а не не росла.
Неизвестно росла или нет - т.е. может росла, а может не росла. Я про персию где-то ниже Роджеру писал, приведу здесь.
Persea [Mimusops laurifolia (Forssk.) Friis (M. schimperi Hochst.) (Sapotaceae)]
A medium-sized evergreen tree up to twenty metres in height, with leathery oval leaves clustered towards the end of the twigs, and yellow fruits, the size of pigeon's eggs (see Fig. 15.8), the persea is found in the mountains of Ethiopia and Yemen, and was probably cultivated in ancient Egypt.
It is mentioned in Egyptian texts from the Eighteenth Dynasty onwards (Erman and Grapow 1926-31: IV, 435/ 10-14; Baum 1988: 87-90) and is discussed by several of the classical writers. Thus Theophrastus (IV: 2, i, 5, 8) describes it as an Egyptian tree that grew in abundance in the Theban region; he states that it was evergreen (which it is) and that the wood, which was strong and black (said to be whitish by Lucas 1962: 445), like that of the nettle tree (Celtis australis), was used for making statues, beds, tables and other objects. Dioscorides (i: 187) notes that the persea was an Egyptian tree, bearing an edible fruit that was good for the stomach, while Pliny (XIII: 17; XV: 13) mentions the tendency, in his day, to confuse the persea with the persica (peach).
Twigs and leaves of persea have been found in tombs of various dates from the Twelfth Dynasty (Newberry 1899: 304; Petrie 1890: 49,1889: 48, 53) to Greco-Roman times. In the Eighteenth-Dynasty tomb of Tutankhamun there were bouquets (several very large) made of twigs with leaves (Carter 1927: 33; Germer 1989: 20; Hepper 1990: 15) together with dried fruit and two glass models of the fruit. Twigs were also found in the Eighteenth-Dynasty Theban tombs of Kha (TT8; Schiaparelli 1927:166) and Meritamun (06358; Winlock 1932: 52), although the Meritamun twigs may have been deposited in the Twenty-first Dynasty. Persea fruits have been found in many tombs (see Loret and Poisson 1895: 88-9; Beauverie 1935: 133-4; Schiemann 1941: 128), the earliest specimens being of the Third Dynasty, from the Djoser pyramid complex at Saqqara (Lauer et al. 1951:129-30).
Light brown to whitish with yellowish tint (as described by Lucas 1962: 445). There appears to be no published information concerning its anatomical description.
Joinery, carpentry and construction.
Examples Middle Kingdom: Corner piece of coffin
По сравнению с оливой в десятки раз больше и находок и свидетельств, но, все равно, не пишут Rowena Gale , Peter Gasson, Nigel Hepper ( AEMT, Ch.15 Wood) "undoubtedly" , оставляют "probably".
Геродот - замечательный авторитет. И кидаться мы им не будет. Его слова замечательно согласуются со словами Страбона. Плохо вызревают на масло оливы в Египте, правда в Фаюмском оазисе, дополняет Страбон, все же вызревают.
Согласуется и Геродот, и Страбон - Геродот не писал того, чего еще не было, Страбон описывал то, что появилось после Геродота ( см. ниже у Лукаса).
А насчет "нафиг не нужна" Вы это напрасно! Мне вот оливковое масло "нафиг не нужно" - не люблю я его, а оливки очень даже уважаю. Кроме того, листья оливы широко использовались в египетской фармакопее.
Вы ж оливы не выращиваете втихомолку на дачном участке для своих потребностей - предпочитаете импорт. Или?
А вот Вы умудрились выбросить одно из самых интересных мест, касающееся вопроса, по которому в том числе и с Вами сломали немало копий. Нехорошо!
Если бы я выбросил, что-нибудь касающееся темы - то упреки я заслужил. Если бы не выбросил то, что не касается темы - Вы бы первый бросили в меня камень оверквоттинга. Впрочем, посмотрю.
Вы написали Сергею Дыбову, извините, полную белиберду:
Это Ваше личное мнение, но Вы имеете на него право.:)
Теперь же делаете хорошую мину при плохой игре. И от прямого вопроса Марины - откуда Вы это взяли, уклонились.
Я не очень ее понял, но попробую наугад тиснуть (Лукас):
References to olive trees, olives, and olive oil in translations of Egyptian texts are to be treated with caution and cannot be regarded as valid evidence for the early cultivation of the tree in Egypt, since in many cases it is the Egyptian words for the moringa tree and ben oil that have been incorrectly interpreted as olive. In fact, the word for olive does not occur before the Nineteenth Dynasty, though a fragment of a mural painting of the Eighteenth Dynasty shows part of a small olive tree with several olives growing on it.
The classical writers, however, supply information respecting the olive tree in Egypt, thus Theophrastus (fourth to third century B.C.) states that the olive tree grew in the Thebaid, which statement is copied by Pliny, and that 'The oil produced is not inferior to that of our country, except that it has a less pleasing smell...' Strabo (first century B.C. to first century A.D.) says of the Arsinoite Nome (the Fayum) that 'It is the only nome planted with large, full-grown olive trees, which bear fine fruit. If the produce were carefully collected, good oil might be obtained, but this care is neglected, and although a large quantity of oil is obtained, yet it has a disagreeable smell. (The rest of Egypt is without the olive tree, except the gardens near Alexandria, which are planted with olive trees, but do not furnish any oil).' Pliny (first century A.D.) writes that 'In Egypt, too, the berries, which are remarkably meaty, are found to produce very little oil.'
Mahaffy and Grenfell both point out that in the legislation of Ptolemy Philadelphus (285 to 246 B.C.) concerning oils and oil-pressing in Egypt there is not any reference to olive oil, commenting upon which Bevan says, 'Olive trees grew in the Fayum, but olive oil does not seem to have been included in the monopoly.' The reason is not apparent, though it might possibly have been that the oil produced was too insignificant in quantity to be legislated for. Olives are mentioned in the Fayum about 257 B.C. and young olive trees of the same date in 256 B.C. One papyrus mentions the planting of olive shoots and in another olive groves are referred to; in 255 B.C. one papyrus mentions the planting of olives and another the planting of 3,000 shoots, and it is stated that 'the Egyptian olive is only suitable for parks and not for olive-groves'; in 251 B.C. olive shoots are mentioned; olive oil is referred to in the second century A.D. and olive-yards on several occasions ranging in date from A.D. 94 to A.D. no. The mere mention of olive oil, however, is not proof that it was of Egyptian origin, since, as already shown, this oil was imported into Egypt from Syria and particularly at a late date also from Greece. C. R. Scott, writing in 1837, that is during the reign of Mohammed Ali, states that 'Vast tracts of land have been planted in various parts of the country with olive and mulberry trees.' In 1901, G. Bonaparte, of the School of Agriculture, Cairo, states that the olive tree was only cultivated in Egypt to a very limited extent, chiefly in the Fayum and that the fruits were poor in oil. In 1927, Newberry writes that the olive tree 'is only cultivated in a very few gardens in Upper Egypt at the present day'.
Ruffer saw a few, but only very few, olive trees in the oases of Dakhia and Kharga in the western desert. Beadnell says that'. . . olives are grown in both Kharga and Dakhia, but only in comparatively small quantities.' Ball and Beadnell say18 that '. . . olives . . . are grown in great numbers' in the oasis of Baharia . In 1923 Belgrave estimated that there were in Siwa oasis about 40,000 fruit-bearing olive trees . According to the local Press, the Egyptian Government recently has planted a considerable number of olive trees in the country to the west of Alexandria.
The facts enumerated seem to show that, although the olive tree grows abundantly in. the countries on all sides of Egypt (across the Mediterranean to the north in Anatolia and Greece; on the north-east in Palestine and Syria; on the south in Abyssinia, where there are two kinds that grow wild, and on the west in Siwa and in Tunis and Algeria) it has never accommodated itself well to the conditions in Egypt, and that although the Greeks, who were accustomed to the cultivation of the olive tree in their own country, tried to grow it in the most likely localities in Egypt (the Fayum and the neighbourhood of Alexandria), it never really nourished and from an oil-producing point of view it has always been a failure. Newberry has shown that the region adjoining the Nile Delta on the west was probably the original home of olive culture and the most ancient centre of commerce in olive oil.
The evidence from the tombs for the cultivation of the olive tree in Egypt is very scanty and does not carry it farther back than the Eighteenth Dynasty, the period when Keimer states that probably it was introduced into the country. The principal discoveries that can be traced are: in the tomb of Tutankhamun, where there was a large funerary bouquet of persea , which contained a few very small olive twigs and three wreaths partly composed of olive leaves; part of a garland with three olive leaves from a tomb of the Eighteenth Dynasty at Thebes, and a leaf from a bouquet found in the tomb of Amenhotpe II ; olive twigs of the Twentieth Dynasty or later, identified by Schweinfurth ; a small twig with leaves in the Cairo Museum, marked as having been found by Schiaparelli at Thebes and dated to the period Twentieth to Twenty-sixth Dynasty; also in the same museum, a similar twig stated to have been found by Maspero at Gebelein and to be not earlier than the